Pretty harsh assessment from Andrew but certainly warranted. I'm no Nostramus but every pre-season on the last day of Spring Training I enter my prediction for the season - not based on the ST record. This March, I entered 85-77. I didn't see enough progress on the lineup even with Soto and the pitching was suspect.
This year I also took a shot at individual performance - with less accuracy as it turned out.
I had regression from Lindor and Alonso. Totally missed on Pete but arguably right with Lindor who was maddenly streaky this season.
I had Alvarez losing his starting job - close, but Torrens is arguably at least equal overall, imo.
I had Soto as the club MVP. Bingo.
I had Senga flopping. Bingo again
I had Diaz losing the closer slot - total miss there.
Finally, I had Baty "stepping up". So-so. He did enough to keep his MLB card but not much more.
If your entire team falls apart because you didn't bring back a back-up 36-year-old infielder who has a .563 OPS this year, your clubhouse was probably f*cked regardless.
I questioned that move from the start....drained some energy. JD Martinez, in a reduced role, could also help, as he was a respected voice about hitting. Someone to stay on top of Alvarez. I like Francisco, but, let's face it, he is very scattered. u He works hard, plays hurt, but his mental game is lacking. He gets anxious at the plate, and becomes over-aggressive. He needs a coach to be in his ear all the time. Lindor seems different. Like he has stepped back because of Soto, which is a mistake. He needs to be an onbase machine, not a slugger. Same with Nimmo.
The fat lady is on the stage. We are going to be talking about this collapse for years too. The funny thing is this should be expected. This team has been terrible for months now. Their saving grace is they built that 21 games over .500 early in the season to just about pissing it all away. I’m going to be shocked if this team makes the playoffs. If they finish over .500 is seriously in doubt right now. It’s not even losing that hurts. They are getting blown out daily now. This will go down as one of the worst seasons in team history. Don’t look at the fangraphs playoff percentage. It’s false hope. This team is going nowhere.
There are a lot of reasons for the fix we're in, from bad luck with injuries to some arguably bad roster moves. And I honestly don't know how much lineup control Mendy has and how much responsibility he bears for this.
But it's impossible to dispute the lack of fight in this team. I don't know what the reason is, especially given the fact the core is the same, with the addition of a superstar who is very much carrying his weight down the stretch.
Did our veterans shoot their bolt last year? Was the long stretch of Lindor fighting through his toe injury the deciding factor? Is it just a matter of a demoralizing lack of starting pitching?
I really don't know. But the fact we can all point to the exact date when we cracked is very, very troubling. We may not know why, but we definitely know when, and it shouldn't be that easy to spot.
The cited playoff odds remain over 80%. I think they figure they can limp to the playoffs and once there, go on a run like last year. The Reds have to make up two games, the Giants three (given the tiebreaker), and the Diamondbacks even more. Two games is quite possible in seventeen or so games. OTOH, who trusts any of those teams not to falter in that span of time?
Until the Mets fall out of the playoffs in the standings, at the very least, I find it hard to expect them not to make it. The team is not pleasant to watch. But they are benefiting from flawed competition. They have been bad for a while now. They STILL have a playoff spot.
It feels familiar -- they are good enough to make it (though maybe they just miss it), but not good enough to expect them to go far. IF everything goes their way, they might even get to the World Series. Where they fall quickly.
A tough love position would be to hope they don't make it. Perhaps that will prompt a shift in the philosophy of relying on garage sale starting rotation prices.
The team starts 45-24. 6 of the 13 pitchers get hurt. Montas & Manaea then get activated and both are completely ineffective. A decent bullpen now devastated by injuries and lack of length out of the starting pitching gets overworked. Team goes 17-24 leading up to the trade deadline. GM trades 8 controllable prospects for 3 relievers that are all 1 inning guys, and are mostly ineffective but doesn’t add any starters. Team then goes 2-10 before the GM finally calls up help from the minors.
Starters almost never pitch 5 innings. and with no long men in the bullpen manager is forced to use 3-4 bullpen arms every single day. None of this has anything to do with heart or effort.
Totally and respectively disagree. While everything you said is correct, you have to look beyond the x's and o's and the boxscore. Look at this stretch and it is clear there is no heart or effort. There is no pulse too. They've been competitive. Can you honestly tell me they've played with heart and and effort this series alone? If you say yes, you are either not being truthful or not looking at the whole performance. Yes, again, all the factors you mentioned are a huge reason why they are struggling. But it is also true that they've played with no heart, no urgency and the effort can be questioned too. I will die on that hill
Are they losing this game because of heart? or because they took their starting pitcher out of a game he was winning after only 86 pitches? or because the GM decided not to resign Bader instead trading a promising reliever for Siri who can’t hit? Disgusting
If it’s true that they’re not playing with max effort and urgency, then the manager is gonna take a hit. Which is a shame because I think the biggest factor in the collapse has been the front office. Can’t help but wonder what would be different if Eric Orze was on the team and not Jose Siri, if Brad Gilbert was on the team and not Cedric Mullins, if they kept using Butto and Brazoban instead of getting Helsley and Rogers.
Heart and effort is impossible to measure. They’re like 17 games under .500 over the last 3 months. Bad baseball for much longer than a stretch. I blame a poorly constructed roster more than anything else. The collapse started in June and was precipitated by starters giving no length which caused the depleted bullpen to get overworked. I’m gonna check cause I bet the team’s record when the starter can’t go 5 is awful.
I respect your opinion, and I agree with everything you say other than the heart and effort. I think the eye test does a good job of telling you that this team is playing with a lack of heart, effort, and urgency. And especially right now, when they out of the division race and just two games ahead of the Reds, they just don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation they are in. And, for me, that's heart and effort. But I am with lockstep with you on the poorly constructed roster and the starters not going deep
I’ve gotten used to the poor pitching except when the rookies pitch but the offense frustrates me more. Lindor is 0-15 in the last 4 games. Our offense cannot function when he’s not hitting. That shouldn’t be the case. And I can’t watch Marte anymore.
The heart and soul of the Mets came to the fore again last night as a gritty comeback effort fell just short, as it did the night before. 'It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog', I think Yogi Berra once said.
The two most disappointing players among those who were supposed to be reliable (leaving aside the obvious clunkers like Mullins, Siri, and Mauricio) are, in my view, Nimmo and Baty. Neither has come through in clutch situations. They repeatedly let themselves fall into two-strike counts, then resort to defensive swings just to protect the plate—usually ending in predictable outs.
1. I am upset w manager as-well. He sounds like a scared BS manager saying the same crap after every loss.
I can count the games he alone lost this year with his dumb ass moves and lack of creative thinking when at bat. He is a cast off from the Yankees.
2. Lindor may very well be too involved with his fashion life. He has become who cares?
3. Sharing a big Blame is Mr Smug Sterns getting players off the clearance rack and just smiling while telling us this team has talent. His BS with a smile doesn’t work
4. They let go if Bader - they let go of Iglessis - now the Mets are sanitized and boring - never mind they can’t win games but they are not even entertaining. Hey boys, it shows you don’t give a SH**IT
5. Better see a huge overhaul of players this winter and find at least 1 player who has spirit
6. GRATEFUL for:
Mr Cohen
JUAN SOTO
1st base coach
McNeill diversity positions
7. Been a Met Fan from first year they came into league. Never said this before but saying it now:
ROOTING FOR Red or Rangers or AZ TO KNOCK METS OFF - let them go play golf. I am no longer wasting time watching or caring
A much more eloquent way of saying what I have been saying: they are phoning it in. Even Lindor seems like he’s absent. Your take is right on the money.
Pretty harsh assessment from Andrew but certainly warranted. I'm no Nostramus but every pre-season on the last day of Spring Training I enter my prediction for the season - not based on the ST record. This March, I entered 85-77. I didn't see enough progress on the lineup even with Soto and the pitching was suspect.
This year I also took a shot at individual performance - with less accuracy as it turned out.
I had regression from Lindor and Alonso. Totally missed on Pete but arguably right with Lindor who was maddenly streaky this season.
I had Alvarez losing his starting job - close, but Torrens is arguably at least equal overall, imo.
I had Soto as the club MVP. Bingo.
I had Senga flopping. Bingo again
I had Diaz losing the closer slot - total miss there.
Finally, I had Baty "stepping up". So-so. He did enough to keep his MLB card but not much more.
As for the Mets -
Wait until next year!
Nailed it. This is so disappointing.
Is this where we start questioning the Jose Igelsia non move?
If your entire team falls apart because you didn't bring back a back-up 36-year-old infielder who has a .563 OPS this year, your clubhouse was probably f*cked regardless.
I questioned that move from the start....drained some energy. JD Martinez, in a reduced role, could also help, as he was a respected voice about hitting. Someone to stay on top of Alvarez. I like Francisco, but, let's face it, he is very scattered. u He works hard, plays hurt, but his mental game is lacking. He gets anxious at the plate, and becomes over-aggressive. He needs a coach to be in his ear all the time. Lindor seems different. Like he has stepped back because of Soto, which is a mistake. He needs to be an onbase machine, not a slugger. Same with Nimmo.
Please explain.....we shoukd have kept him?? I thought so
The fat lady is on the stage. We are going to be talking about this collapse for years too. The funny thing is this should be expected. This team has been terrible for months now. Their saving grace is they built that 21 games over .500 early in the season to just about pissing it all away. I’m going to be shocked if this team makes the playoffs. If they finish over .500 is seriously in doubt right now. It’s not even losing that hurts. They are getting blown out daily now. This will go down as one of the worst seasons in team history. Don’t look at the fangraphs playoff percentage. It’s false hope. This team is going nowhere.
There are a lot of reasons for the fix we're in, from bad luck with injuries to some arguably bad roster moves. And I honestly don't know how much lineup control Mendy has and how much responsibility he bears for this.
But it's impossible to dispute the lack of fight in this team. I don't know what the reason is, especially given the fact the core is the same, with the addition of a superstar who is very much carrying his weight down the stretch.
Did our veterans shoot their bolt last year? Was the long stretch of Lindor fighting through his toe injury the deciding factor? Is it just a matter of a demoralizing lack of starting pitching?
I really don't know. But the fact we can all point to the exact date when we cracked is very, very troubling. We may not know why, but we definitely know when, and it shouldn't be that easy to spot.
The cited playoff odds remain over 80%. I think they figure they can limp to the playoffs and once there, go on a run like last year. The Reds have to make up two games, the Giants three (given the tiebreaker), and the Diamondbacks even more. Two games is quite possible in seventeen or so games. OTOH, who trusts any of those teams not to falter in that span of time?
Until the Mets fall out of the playoffs in the standings, at the very least, I find it hard to expect them not to make it. The team is not pleasant to watch. But they are benefiting from flawed competition. They have been bad for a while now. They STILL have a playoff spot.
It feels familiar -- they are good enough to make it (though maybe they just miss it), but not good enough to expect them to go far. IF everything goes their way, they might even get to the World Series. Where they fall quickly.
A tough love position would be to hope they don't make it. Perhaps that will prompt a shift in the philosophy of relying on garage sale starting rotation prices.
The team starts 45-24. 6 of the 13 pitchers get hurt. Montas & Manaea then get activated and both are completely ineffective. A decent bullpen now devastated by injuries and lack of length out of the starting pitching gets overworked. Team goes 17-24 leading up to the trade deadline. GM trades 8 controllable prospects for 3 relievers that are all 1 inning guys, and are mostly ineffective but doesn’t add any starters. Team then goes 2-10 before the GM finally calls up help from the minors.
Starters almost never pitch 5 innings. and with no long men in the bullpen manager is forced to use 3-4 bullpen arms every single day. None of this has anything to do with heart or effort.
Totally and respectively disagree. While everything you said is correct, you have to look beyond the x's and o's and the boxscore. Look at this stretch and it is clear there is no heart or effort. There is no pulse too. They've been competitive. Can you honestly tell me they've played with heart and and effort this series alone? If you say yes, you are either not being truthful or not looking at the whole performance. Yes, again, all the factors you mentioned are a huge reason why they are struggling. But it is also true that they've played with no heart, no urgency and the effort can be questioned too. I will die on that hill
Are they losing this game because of heart? or because they took their starting pitcher out of a game he was winning after only 86 pitches? or because the GM decided not to resign Bader instead trading a promising reliever for Siri who can’t hit? Disgusting
If it’s true that they’re not playing with max effort and urgency, then the manager is gonna take a hit. Which is a shame because I think the biggest factor in the collapse has been the front office. Can’t help but wonder what would be different if Eric Orze was on the team and not Jose Siri, if Brad Gilbert was on the team and not Cedric Mullins, if they kept using Butto and Brazoban instead of getting Helsley and Rogers.
Heart and effort is impossible to measure. They’re like 17 games under .500 over the last 3 months. Bad baseball for much longer than a stretch. I blame a poorly constructed roster more than anything else. The collapse started in June and was precipitated by starters giving no length which caused the depleted bullpen to get overworked. I’m gonna check cause I bet the team’s record when the starter can’t go 5 is awful.
I respect your opinion, and I agree with everything you say other than the heart and effort. I think the eye test does a good job of telling you that this team is playing with a lack of heart, effort, and urgency. And especially right now, when they out of the division race and just two games ahead of the Reds, they just don't seem to grasp the reality of the situation they are in. And, for me, that's heart and effort. But I am with lockstep with you on the poorly constructed roster and the starters not going deep
I’ve gotten used to the poor pitching except when the rookies pitch but the offense frustrates me more. Lindor is 0-15 in the last 4 games. Our offense cannot function when he’s not hitting. That shouldn’t be the case. And I can’t watch Marte anymore.
New York Mets
NYM
Philadelphia Phillies
PHI
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 R H E
0 0 0 1 0 0 0 1 1 3 9 0
2 0 0 0 2 4 1 2 - 11 14 0
The heart and soul of the Mets came to the fore again last night as a gritty comeback effort fell just short, as it did the night before. 'It's not the dog in the fight, it's the fight in the dog', I think Yogi Berra once said.
The two most disappointing players among those who were supposed to be reliable (leaving aside the obvious clunkers like Mullins, Siri, and Mauricio) are, in my view, Nimmo and Baty. Neither has come through in clutch situations. They repeatedly let themselves fall into two-strike counts, then resort to defensive swings just to protect the plate—usually ending in predictable outs.
PATHETIC!!
1. I am upset w manager as-well. He sounds like a scared BS manager saying the same crap after every loss.
I can count the games he alone lost this year with his dumb ass moves and lack of creative thinking when at bat. He is a cast off from the Yankees.
2. Lindor may very well be too involved with his fashion life. He has become who cares?
3. Sharing a big Blame is Mr Smug Sterns getting players off the clearance rack and just smiling while telling us this team has talent. His BS with a smile doesn’t work
4. They let go if Bader - they let go of Iglessis - now the Mets are sanitized and boring - never mind they can’t win games but they are not even entertaining. Hey boys, it shows you don’t give a SH**IT
5. Better see a huge overhaul of players this winter and find at least 1 player who has spirit
6. GRATEFUL for:
Mr Cohen
JUAN SOTO
1st base coach
McNeill diversity positions
7. Been a Met Fan from first year they came into league. Never said this before but saying it now:
ROOTING FOR Red or Rangers or AZ TO KNOCK METS OFF - let them go play golf. I am no longer wasting time watching or caring
A much more eloquent way of saying what I have been saying: they are phoning it in. Even Lindor seems like he’s absent. Your take is right on the money.